Ukraine – Interview with Ukrainian academic Andriy Shkrabyuk: “Historically, Ukrainian independence already existed at the time of the Cossacks, that is, in the second half of the 17th century. Various elements of this Ukrainian Hetmanate functioned until 1783. In addition, there was a different culture in Ukraine from the Russian one, more inspired by European customs, for example by the Magdeburg Law, with elements of separation of powers. ”
Andriy Shkrabyuk is an academic from Lviv, specialising in Greek-Catholic and Orthodox liturgies and liturgical music.
Olivier Bault spoke with him by phone on Monday evening, 28 February, on the fifth day of the Russian offensive against Ukraine.
Olivier Bault: What is the situation in Lviv at the moment?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: Even in my home, we are currently putting up a family from Kharkiv with three children. There are refugees everywhere. My wife and I are wondering whether we should send our children to Poland to stay with Polish friends. Just a moment ago, the air raid siren alarms sounded. It is like that all the time. Generally speaking, if we compare the situation with other cities of Ukraine, it is of course better, calmer, but there are a lot of tensions. There is a food supply problem because people have bought everything they can and deliveries are hampered. The situation is not yet catastrophic, but there are problems.
Olivier Bault: Have there been explosions or are they just air raid alarms?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: These are just alarms, but we also catch diversionary groups, people who, though few in number, install signage on buildings to make them easy targets. The threat of bombing is there and we do not know how it will end.
Olivier Bault: But there have been no air raids or missile attacks on Lviv yet, right?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: In the oblast, there have been such attacks on various military facilities. Not on the city itself, though, but we do not know what will happen.
Olivier Bault: What is the state of mind of people when they see what is happening in Kiev, Kharkiv and other cities where there is fighting and where their compatriots have to defend themselves against the Russian army?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: Men want to fight. There is a great desire to fight among the men. I have not met anyone who would waver on the need to fight. No one has any doubt. All this creates tension in the population and even a kind of panic, but this does not translate into disorderly actions. People are terrified, on the one hand, but they remain firm. Many men want to join the territorial defence. Territorial defence consists of distributing weapons and ammunition to people, for example Kalashnikovs. The number of volunteers already exceeds requirements. The mood is to fight against the enemy.
Olivier Bault: In your opinion and in the opinion of Ukrainians around you, of your family, your acquaintances and friends, and your colleagues at work, what are the real reasons for this war? Why did Vladimir Putin decide to invade Ukraine now?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: Ukraine is a source of resentment for Putin. He has a real complex about it. The way he thinks dates back to the Soviet era. He does not regard Ukraine as a real country. He keeps saying that there is no Ukrainian nation. He does not accept the idea that such a nation exists, that it has a different mentality, a different culture, different state and democratic traditions. He forgets that during his own reign, five presidents have already been elected in Ukraine. Putin has been in power for 22 years, while in Ukraine we have already had five presidents and governments from different political sides. Power has changed hands. This is something he cannot understand. For him, Ukraine is part of Russia, and has been artificially detached from its motherland. He is attacking us because he wants Ukraine back. He now wants to do the same with Ukraine as with Belarus after the August 2020 protests, even if in Belarus things went differently.
Olivier Bault: For many Westerners, who know little about Ukraine or even Russia, Ukraine has never really existed. The fact is that an independent Ukraine has existed only since the fall of the USSR. Apart from that, there was briefly an independent Ukrainian state at the time of the Bolshevik revolution. But there is still a Ukrainian identity. Where does it come from?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: Historically speaking, Ukrainian independence already existed at the time of the Cossacks, that is, in the second half of the 17th century. Various elements of this Ukrainian Hetmanate functioned until 1783. In addition, there was a different culture in Ukraine, more inspired by European customs, for example by the Magdeburg Law, with elements of separation of powers. Ukraine had a system very similar to that of the First Polish Republic with its elected kings. Ukraine was a kind of a smaller-scale copy of the Polish political system. And it is well known that the Russian tsarate and Poland at that time were two completely different worlds. It is important to grasp this difference.
Despite the religious similarity, since we have always adhered like Russia to Eastern Christianity, Ukraine was politically a kind of “East in the West”. It was not the West, but it was not the East either. There was something very interesting about it, a mixture of elements of Eastern religiosity and Western political traditions.
The argument that there has never been a Ukrainian state is, first, ridiculous and, second, very dangerous. It is ridiculous, because I do not know of any European country that did not have border problems a few decades ago or a century ago, and where there have been no territorial conflicts, for example in France over who should own Alsace and Lorraine. It was a bit like our contemporary Donbass. These areas were subject to fighting. If, from Russia’s point of view, Ukraine is an artificial state, why should Austria exist as a separate state? After all, it is a German-speaking country. In his time, Hitler wanted to unite all German-speaking regions. Putin is driven by a similar idea, but he produces this kind of speech without perhaps even realising that it is fascist speech. After all, the French could also say: “And why does Belgium exist? Half of the country speaks French, so maybe it’s not a separate nation? Maybe at least the south of Belgium should be annexed to France? ”
Such a way of thinking leads to terrible things, it leads to war. This is why European culture, since the Second World War, has been based on the principle of a moratorium on this type of thinking. It is based on the idea that we solve these problems in another way and that there is a principle of inviolability of borders. We do not question the Yalta agreements or the Potsdam agreements, because Europe has already paid an enormous price in the past in terms of human and material losses. The price of two horrible wars. The First and Second World Wars broke out because someone thought his mission was to unite the whole German nation, and maybe someone else wanted to unite another nation. From Putin’s point of view, Ukraine is what Austria was for Hitler.
However, Ukraine is very different from Russia and we do not speak the same language, as Ukrainian is completely different from Russian. It does not have the same grammatical structure. Ukrainian is partly related to the West Slavic languages, but it also has links to the South Slavic languages. It is a separate, autonomous language. It is more different from Russian than Dutch is from Flemish, for example, and the Netherlands could also lay claim to Ostend or Antwerp and ask why these regions do not belong to their country. Such a line of thinking is unacceptable. The problem is that Putin has just such a way of thinking that always leads to war. That is why this war broke out. Putin thinks in terms from which Europe has resolutely moved away.
Olivier Bault: We have talked about the question of Ukrainian identity. Could you introduce yourself, say a few words about yourself and tell us what you do?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: I deal with things that have nothing to do with politics. I am mostly involved in liturgy, that is what I am interested in. I am a doctoral student in liturgical theology and I am writing a thesis on Armenian liturgy. I am a specialist in liturgical music from various traditions: Western and Eastern. I am closer to Marcel Pérès, the famous French musicologist and founder of the Organum group, than to any politician. I also work with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which was established and recognised by Constantinople in early 2019. During the week, I usually sing at the Ukrainian Catholic University. We have choir rehearsals and I lead the student ministry. On Sundays I am in one of the Lviv parishes of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and I also conduct the choir there. For me, the Greek Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are sister churches.
Olivier Bault: To which of these Churches do you belong?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: I belong to Christ. For me, belonging to the Church as a community bound by certain rules is somewhat secondary, if I may say so. I feel that I am a full member of both the Greek Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. I directed the Armenian choir of the Armenian Apostolic Church for 20 years and I feel at home there as well. And when I go to sing with the Dominican fathers, as I also help prepare the liturgy of the traditional Mass in the Dominican rite, which is the Tridentine Mass, I bring my singers from the Eastern churches and we sing Gregorian chants in a very traditional Latin version. For me, tradition is important. There is a little more tradition in the East than in the West. I know that there are liturgical problems in the Western Church today, but that is another topic. I feel part of the Greek Catholic, Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditionalist community. The traditional Church is where I belong.
Olivier Bault: I understand that you are attached to Tradition and to Christ. So, in the political sphere, you are probably a conservative, literally, right?
Andriy Shkrabyuk: Yes, to a large extent. I lean towards conservatism, but maybe not 100%.
Olivier Bault: In that case, don’t you fear that if Ukraine wants to move away from Russia and join the European Union, the steamroller of LGBT ideology will transform your country? Poland is facing this problem already. Brussels is putting pressure on Poland to stop defending the traditional family model. Do Ukrainians who, like you, have rather traditional values really want to join this European Union?
