PM Orban: Ukraine War Could Easily Become EU's Afghanistan

Prime Minister Viktor Orban participated in the first Tucker Carlson Summit in Dubai, where he gave an interview to the American right-wing commentator. The conversation between President Donald Trump's close allies attracted significant interest.

Hungarian PM Viktor Orban gave an interview to American commentator Tucker Carlson, one of Donald Trump's close allies (Source: Facebook/Viktor Orban)

Prime Minister Viktor Orban discussed with Tucker Carlson the USAID scandal involving the Democratic leadership in the United States, the early days of President Donald Trump's tenure, illegal immigration, the present and future of NATO, as well as the Russia–Ukraine war.

We have done something for 15 years in Hungary, in liberal headwind: stopping migration, defending traditional values, respecting religious communities, no green deal, low taxation. So everything that's considered unoxthodox in the minds of liberals. And for this, we were some kind of hero,

– stated Viktor Orban. He believes that Hungary was a kind of island of difference in the liberal ocean; however, the arrival of President Donald Trump has brought about a completely new reality.

And this, perhaps I can say, is very beneficial for Hungary, because I tried to joke about what the past 15 years were like, but this was serious. So when there's immense pressure from the United States on your chest, and one from Brussels, the European Union, trying to kill you and provide evidence that this way of governance cannot work, it's hard to survive. Now we look back happily, but it was very serious before, so now at least we've received a good boost. The American pressure is no longer on our chest, we're happy about that, and we'll be even happier when the pressure from the Brussels bureaucrats is also off our chest,

– PM Orban underlined. 

Democrats tried to interfere in Hungarian affairs

Tucker Carlson recalled that during a previous dinner, one of the Prime Minister Orban's advisors mentioned that the U.S. government, the State Department, and agencies like USAID were working against the Hungarian cabinet, indirectly financing its opposition, and genuinely trying to undermine democracy in his country. He added that this later turned out to be true. He asked whether it's worth considering when exactly what the State Department did to dismantle democracy in Hungary will be revealed.

First of all, I think those who love conspiracy theories are in trouble because they need to find new ones after the previous ones turned out to be true. This whole thing is a huge problem in the United States. The situation is that this is taxpayers' money, so if we take this whole thing not as a political but as a moral issue, then the fact is that the Western liberal elite is spreading its ideology worldwide with U.S. taxpayers' money, and in Hungary, it paid more than 60 NGOs, financed politicians, and media outlets. This was a conspiracy against our sovereignty and independence,

–  highlighted Viktor Orban in his response. He noted that the same happened with the Brussels budget, which is even more scandalous since that money was paid into the budget by Hungarians, and from that, these intervention attempts are financed. "This is the global liberal deep state; now we see what's really going on here," Hungary's prime minister added. So of course, the question arises as to why anyone would want to spread deadly ideas like open borders or transgenderism, he emphasized. "One motivation is always money. So the American Democrats thought they could open the gate for their business activities if they replace governments that insisted on sovereignty and fought for themselves. Because when it comes to these governments, speculators are having a hard time," he said.

The Soros Plan

According to Viktor Orban, the other reason is that the leaders of the Western European left are deeply convinced that if they let in migrants, who are fundamentally Muslim, and lead them to unite with traditional Christian society, then integration will be successful, and they believe that this whole process will result be a better, and happier society.

This is the reason why George Soros had published his plan. In it, he wrote that the European Union should let in one million migrants annually into Europe. I always said that this is a decision for national governments. So if the Germans or the French want to embark on a historical research project on how to improve their society, let them do it. But those who don't believe that it will produce good things, they shouldn't do this. So Hungary never tried to educate anyone on how society could be better or worse. We always said, let's decide for ourselves. And whether we let in migrants or not is solely a decision for our nation,

– Mr. Orban said.  "So don't try to force upon us that migration is good, and whoever doesn't let in migrants is certainly a bad person," he added. He also noted that President Donald Trump changed the West's way of thinking and will probably change geopolitics as well. The American president has already brought about a huge change in others' political thinking. Previously, they said migration is good, and one shouldn't resist it; now they say the exact opposite. Now, protecting interests is a good thing, and illegal migration is especially bad. The same goes for the green deal, as previously they said that green is good, and economic competitiveness doesn't matter. "Now it's clear that economic competitiveness comes first, and green issues are only second," he listed.

Tucker Carlson then recalled that all this wasn't forced on any nation outside the West, like China or India, Korea or Japan, only on Western countries. According to Viktor Orban, understanding this would require a deeper understanding of European political thinking and intellectual history.

There has always been a strong left-liberal community that wasn't proud to be Western. They always perceived their own civilization as something bad, and their intention wasn't to make it stronger but to improve it through destruction. They don't like the West; they don't like their nation. Sometimes they're ashamed to belong to a nation because they think that nation is a bad thing,

– said PM Orban, who believes that this is the leftists' approach, the tradition of the European left, adding that - in recent years - we've witnessed this in everyday political debate. According to Viktor Orban, intellectually, we live under a liberal dictatorship, but politically, we're still in democracies. Now, because of migration, we have a problem with democracy because there's an elite that refuses to accept the voters' clear will, and instead of accepting it, they impose their own crazy ideas against the population, he explained.

Viktor Orban also recalled that earlier, at the beginning of the mass migration period, more than half the societies supported doing something good for those considered refugees. Then slowly but surely, it turned out that they are fundamentally not refugees, and are being organized by people smugglers . "This whole thing is an international black business. And now, terrorism is surfacing. The problem is that the elite was so committed to the ideology that now it's hard to change their stance," said PM Orban, who also highlighted that Germany will soon hold elections where everyone can see what he's talking about.

He also pointed out that democracy is a concept that we use too much and probably too often without precisely understanding what it means.

There are many theories, as you know, but the most essential is the Greek-origin theory of democracy. According to it, democracy means two things at once: the participation and involvement of the people. However, the participation of the people must result in good governance. If the involvement of the people, public opinion, doesn't result in good governance, that's anarchy, not democracy. And now in Europe, we are heading towards a situation where people have the opportunity to vote, but they have no chance for good governance. So, in Western Europe, we are moving toward a kind of anarchy in public life,

– Mr. Orban stated.

The European economy is in trouble

 PM Orban also explained that the German economy is part of the European framework, because there is a single market, which, however, is in trouble. "I've been in international politics for over 30 years, and I remember that 30 years ago, the European Union was the world’s largest economy. Now, it’s only third. And if you look at the five largest economies in the world, none of them are European. So, the European Union is not an economic success story. And the success of the European Union has always been closely tied to the success of the German economy. And now they are suffering, and we are suffering too. The reason is very simple. The German economy and the European economy had a well-functioning structural model. Cheap Russian energy met with advanced European technology, and we were competitive. But now, after the war, we are isolated from cheap energy, and there is no new strategy on how to be competitive. This is why China and the United States – especially with President Trump back – are obviously in a much better position than we are. We are suffering because of the lack of leadership, ideas, and visions," he highlighted.

Tucker Carlson then reminded Mr. Orban that the Biden administration had forced Germany into the green deal by blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline. "So, the biggest player in NATO is committing an act of terror, industrial terrorism, against NATO's second-largest player. How is it that NATO still exists, honestly? And why is no one talking about this?"- asked the American journalist.

Hungary is a small country. If this had happened to Hungary, it would have had a massive impact, no question. But you know, this is Germany...

– Orban Viktor replied sarcastically. He then pointed out that Hungary’s main criticism of the European Union right now is that it is waging war on everyone who could potentially be an important partner. The European Union has tried to build a bloc instead of pursuing a strategy based on connectivity and sensible business dealings with everyone.

The Russia-Ukraine war is dangerous

Tucker Carlson asked Viktor Orban what he thought of the Western accusations that he is a puppet of Russian President Vladimir Putin. PM Orban said these accusations are so ridiculous that it is always a dilemma for him whether to respond or not.

My job is to serve my nation. Second, we have memories with the Russians that are not exactly honeymoon memories. The Russians have always kept their word when we made agreements with Putin, and this has been true on my part as well. Therefore, my approach to the Russians is not as negative and crazy as many Western leaders' is right now. And my position on the war between Ukraine and Russia has always been this: this war is not about Ukraine. The strategic reason for this war is NATO expansion. If we want to expand NATO, the Russians will never accept it. Whether you like it or not, they will not allow us to come closer to their borders. So, when the war broke out, because Russia invaded Ukraine to definitively stop NATO membership and occupy territories, I told my colleagues that we must isolate this whole conflict as much as possible and as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the conflict will accelerate, it will consume more money, and it will claim more victims and more lives,

– Viktor Orban recalled. "And you know, when two Slavic nations are at war, it’s serious because both are military-based nations. This is not just a geopolitical game; it’s a human tragedy, by the way. But now, the Western strategy is to keep fighting as long as necessary, so unfortunately, I am left alone. We voted, and I was the only one who opposed the European Union’s involvement in the war later. Now, the Slovaks are following this path, along with the Vatican, and now even President Donald Trump. This is a new story because your president is following the same path that we are," PM Orban told Tucker Carlson. The journalist then asked why the Biden administration wanted to continue the war and what its impact had been on Hungary.

Because of the sanctions and the war, we lose about 7 billion euros a year in the south. We don’t know the exact numbers, but Europe spent almost 200 billion euros, which has left the European economy. As I said, we’re losing our jobs, our well-functioning economic strategy, which was the foundation of the European economy. Another problem is that many people are fleeing from Ukraine. No one knows exactly how many, but it’s tens of millions. The industrial area has been completely destroyed, and people are just fleeing. And if President Trump can’t find a solution, this war could easily become Afghanistan for the European Union,

– he emphasized, then added that the war is consuming energy, lives, money, everything, and destroying the framework for normal life in the European Union. "The difficulty is that this is not my challenge, but President Trump’s challenge – how to convince the Russians to stop the war, while the Russians are essentially winning. Fortunately, it’s not my job to find an answer, but I am convinced that if you try to find a solution only in the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, you will never find one. From the American perspective, the Biden administration has succeeded in pushing Russia into deep integration with China, PM Orban explained.

We've made a historic mistake that will define at least the next 100 years, he opined.

And "now, as the West started increasingly absorbing Ukraine, first at the military level, by developing their army, and then even diplomatically, with discussions about Ukraine’s potential NATO membership, they have turned the buffer zone into a war zone, he added.

– Even though I have many critical comments, it doesn’t matter if we look at what has happened in Ukraine over the past few years from the right perspective. They decided to go to war to defend their own territory, their right to join NATO, and to belong to the Western architecture, the security and economic architecture. That was their decision, and that’s why they are fighting. And tens of thousands of lives have been lost, and they are fighting heroically. So, I am very cautious about making critical comments about the president or Ukraine because what they have done is truly something heroic and historic," Mr. Orban said. However, Ukraine may have misunderstood the West, thinking that the West would support Ukraine forever, he added.

And that’s why their behavior was not exactly what it should be considered as normal. Because when you’re in trouble, and you need help, you go somewhere to ask for help. Instead, they have communicated with us in an inappropriate tone. They thought that they could do this because the West would remain behind them forever. If you understand the history of Western politics, this is a misconception, may I say. That's is not what the West has done in the last several years. So I'm sure that sooner or later they will be left alone: the war, the financial support and the military support is over. So, my heart is with the Ukrainians, but they are in big, big trouble,

– he said. PM Orban emphasized that now everyone thinks we have a problem called Russia, which is true, but soon we will have another problem called Ukraine. Despite the change in the American position, Brussels issued a statement saying they will continue the war as they have, regardless of what the Americans say.

It is possible that we will see a definitive solution within the next six months, but possibly even earlier. "So, strong people make peace, weak people make war. Now we have strong leaders," he said.

At the end of the interview, Tucker Carlson mentioned that Viktor Orban is the longest-serving prime minister in Europe, to which Mr. Orban responded that he has another record, too – having spent 16 years in opposition.

Just because they accuse me of not being democratic, you know, don’t forget that. Okay, 19 years in government, that’s something. But 16 years in opposition and leading it, that’s even more. So, I know both sides of democracy, the sunny and the "rainy" side, too. So, I never left politics, even when I lost the election,

– Mr. Orban said. Then he added that he believes the majority in Europe is moving towards a pro-peace stance, and that now the pro-peace camp is the bigger. 

Cover photo: Hungarian PM Viktor Orban gave an interview to American commentator Tucker Carlson, one of Donald Trump's close allies (Source: Facebook/Viktor Orban)