"Some in Kyiv Truly Considered Hungary a Security Threat"

Levente Magyar is perhaps the member of the Hungarian government who, since the outbreak of the war, has traveled to Ukraine most often, and even to Kyiv. This is no easy task in the rather tense current situation. We asked the deputy foreign minister how he was received by Hungary's eastern neighbor, how relations between the country and Ukraine stand, and whether he sees any chance of a normalization.

Fotó: Arpad Kurucz

As the Hungarian government member who has also visited Kyiv and is a regular guest in Ukraine, what's the mood like at this time?

I have indeed visited Ukraine quite a few times since the outbreak of the war, although I have not ventured beyond Kyiv. Overall, Ukrainian-Hungarian relations are varied: there are those who are in favor of political debates and continue to show openness and seek dialogue. Historically, however, there were no serious disagreements between the two countries for a long time, and we were even among the first to recognize their independence, which they haven't fogotten. Until 2014, everything was basically fine, as far as can be said of two neighboring Central European countries with a rich history. The primary reason for this was that the previous Ukrainian governments treated minorities liberally and fairly. Even if Kyiv didn't have the money to develop the Transcarpathian region, the Hungarians living there could live in safety. This changed after 2014, when Hungarians also fell victim to the measures taken primarily against the Russians. However, neither the Transcarpathian Hungarians nor Hungary tolerated the deprivation of rights silently.

The conflict led to the point where some people in Kyiv truly believed that Hungary posed a security threat to Ukraine.

There was obviously little chance of us understanding each other amidt such an atmosphere. However, we have never given up our belief that the existing problems can be resolved.

Volodymyr Zelensky spoke in his year-end evaluation about wanting to meet Viktor Orban. Any likelihood of this happening in the near future?

There has been talk for a long time of settling open questions at the highest level. In preparation for the Volodymyr Zelensky-Viktor Orban meeting, we set the condition that we first agree on the way to settle the controversial issues on the table. We haven't reached that point yet, so the meeting is not timely either, but we are working on it. The Ukrainians have just taken a few steps to redress our grievances.

The Ukrainian tone was quite bellicose especially after the start of the war, but later the volume seemed to be turned down a bit. What changed?

Actually, the belligerent tone was already present before, but the war brought a further deterioration of relations. We attributed this to the heightened level of emotion, since Ukraine was obviously in a kind of panic in the first phase of the war, and whether it would be able to stand was in question. Therefore, there was no similarly sharp Hungarian reaction to the sometimes particularly rude outbursts of Ukrainian leaders. Incidentally, Ukraine's more confident attitude towards Hungary has been observable since 2014.

This can be attributed to the support they feel behind them from nearly the entire Western world and this has also bolstered their self-confidence.

Many people might have thought that eventually Hungary would be left all alone on the issue of Ukraine and that there would be no diplomatic repercussions if they continue to bash us. However, bilateral relations have never been defined by what some shout from across the border.

If we peel away the minority issue, what is the relationship with Ukrainian colleagues like?

If we put that aside, our cooperation with almost all Ukrainian actors is excellent. This is especially true with the Transcarpathian leadership, which understood that if we do not place controversial issues at the center of our communication, then we can be successful. Even is the worst periods, we were able to maintain this joint work, by separating off the cooperation with the Transcarpathians from the conflict between the capitals. One result is the opening of a new border crossing point soon, and another is that Hungary is part of the development of an alternative transport corridor - with end points in Transcarpathia and in Italy - that would connect Ukraine with the sea.

Kyiv recently adopted a new law on minorities. Why aren't we celebrating with champagne yet?

Because we do not see the provision of minority rights as a gesture for which we should be grateful, but as a minimum expectation. We have never given the impression that we would accept less than one hundred percent regarding the restoration of minority rights. Still, the recently adopted package of laws in Kyiv is more than I could have hoped for in light of recent years. Given the current political realities, the significance of the developments should not be underestimated, even if there is still work to be done. It is far from being the case that they have perfectly assessed the needs of Transcarpathian Hungarians and fully addressed the problems. Meanwhile, it is obvious that the summit on Ukraine's EU accession and the next major financial package forced them to take steps. Being aware that they would face resistance from Hungary on both issues, they tried to take some positive action.

About two-thirds of the way has been covered with this step, only one-third remains to be completed, and then the sting is taken out of bilateral relations.

Why does Kyiv go into so much trouble because of a community of barely 150 thousand? 

This is the million-dollar question. Transcarpathia was not at all important to the Ukrainian leadership before 2014. An average person living in eastern Ukraine or in Kyiv had little idea what life was like in this remote region of Ukraine. And this situation hasn't changed much, I dare say. By today, however, people have developed the false idea that some kind of Hungarian dominance prevails in Transcarpathia. However, this was not true even when the population of ethnic Hungarians was high. According to the last survey in 2001, the Hungarian community numbered between 150 and 160 thousand, accounting for only about ten percent of the population in Transcarpathia.

It is incomprehensible why the leaders of Ukraine, a country with a population of more than 45 million, thought that leaving the "Hungarian issue" - an issue of marginal importance to Ukraine nationally - unresolved was worth a long political dispute with Hungary.

If I don't assume that they were interested in a conflict in the first place, perhaps what happened is that when they started to curb ethnic minority rights, primarily aimed at Russians after 2014, they did not assess what problems this could lead to in relation to Hungary. And when they realized, they felt they couldn't back out of the situation without losing face. Looking back, they can see what price they had to pay.

Wouldn't Ukraine's EU accession also be in the interest of Transcarpathian Hungarians?

In politics, decision-makers often come to face dilemmas where it would be difficult to weigh the positive and negative consequences of a decision on precision scales. From a Hungarian national perspective, however, it is now clear that it is contrary to our interest to bring Ukraine closer to the European Union. After the quick candidate status and the start of accession negotiations, a possible fast-track membership would certainly do more harm than good in a Hungarian aspect. Although there are limitations, but even now we are able to deliver help to Hungarians in Transcarpathia, as to the rest of Ukraine.  

Accession would not improve this substantially, but we would have to shoulder all the misery of Ukraine.

However, at the EU summit Hungary did not stand in the way of opening accession talks.

An elegant solution has been reached, indicating that we disagree with the decision, but – as in the case of sanctions – the unity of the European Union is valuable enough for us not to hinder the clear will of the majority. Our view on the financial aid to Ukraine is different, because it puts Hungary's direct financial interests at stake, since the EU has linked assistance to Ukraine to its budget, while owing us considerable funds from this budget.

 2023 has posed serious challenges: the war in Ukraine, the energy crisis, and the economic crisis in Europe. Is the worst part over?

With Western support, a country neighboring Hungary has been at war with one of the best-equipped armies in the world for nearly two years. As awful as it is to say, perhaps we have now become somewhat used to this absurdity, or at least have learned to live with it. But that does not change the fact that the war could widen at any time. Moreover, not all actors can be assumed to act rationally. There will be a growing number of those who are desperate enough and have too little to lose to drag the whole world into the conflict. So no one - including Hungary - can sleep peacefully until this war is over. How long can the fighting last?

I don't see the conditions for the war to drag on for as long as it has already lasted.

Ukraine's tormented society is at a level of exhaustion that cannot be sustained for any length of time. In the absence of the promised battlefield successes, sooner or later previously unthinkable political solutions may be put on the table. I can imagine this happening sooner than Russia's often envisioned fatigue. The worst peace is better than war, and it is in this spirit that I wish the people of Ukraine and all of us a long-awaited ceasefire as soon as possible.

Cover photo: Deputy Foreign Minister Levente Magyar (Photo: Arpad Kurucz)